Posted by webbie on [02 Jan 2010 12:51PM]
In Reply to: Jessie and Webbie, please tell me what is going on in Romans 5:12 - 19 posted by a on [28 Dec 2009 07:17AM]
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Romans 5
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
(KJV)

This passage is a difficult one to reconcile with the belief that all men are born innocent, i.e., not guilty of Adam's sin. It certainly could seem like that is what it is saying, yet I don't believe it says that.

I've already commented on v 12, in that it says that death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned. Verse 13 is very important in that sin requires the prior knowledge of sin in order to be imputed. Clearly one must know something is forbidden, refuse the right, and do it anyway in order for the sin to be imputed.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

One question I have is why Paul used the word 'many' (polus) in verse 15 rather than 'all' (pas). It is used for both the condemned and the redeemed. We can accept it for the redeemed because we know that the path to life is narrow and most people do not find it. But if we define polus to mean all with regards to the condemned, which meaning it does not carry, then we are entering into universalism by implying that all men are saved by Jesus Christ, regardless of their state of repentance.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Let me make a comment about death. I believe that the death referred to is not physical death. God said 'In the day that you eat thereof...', but Adam did not die physically. In fact he lived 930 years. But did God lie? No. Adam did die that day. What kind of death was it? I draw my answer from Jesus, who is called the last Adam. Adam himself being the type of Jesus in this passage. The one thing that differentiates us from Jesus before our rebirth is the absence of the Holy Spirit in us. It is my contention that the death Adam died was the removal of the HS link to God. He died spiritually by losing the life of God within.

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

The condemnation being the absence of the HS from mankind because of sin, and the free gift being the return of the HS by way of Jesus' death.

As an aside, I believe that physical death was always in the world - even to man. Man was not created immortal. God place a tree in the garden whose fruit gave eternal life. If man were already eternal, then that tree would be superfluous and meaningless. I believe the designed mortal life of mankind was supposed to be roughly 1000 years.

The last verse is possibly the most difficult.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

In my understanding, the removal of the influence of the HS from mankind, because of Adam's sin, more or less condemns all men to eventual sin, but not because man's nature was somehow altered making him a sinner by nature. All men sin because they are in a battle without any armaments or armor. The human soul stripped of the Holy Spirit is no match to the enemy.

While it is clear that all men sin, I am still not convinced that it is because he is made to sin by the necessity of an altered corrupt nature. Men have the strong propensity to sin but not because they MUST do so by nature. The have it as the result of death of Adam by separation from God. Without the HS, they are powerless against the enemy.

There is nothing that can ever be said to remove our responsibility for sin. We all must stand before God for judgment. If men were not to be judged, I could entertain that men are as they are because of a sin nature. The question is can a righteous and just God condemn a soul to Hell for doing only what his involuntarily inherited nature forced him to do? I would have to answer no. Yet we know that ALL will stand in the judgment.

I have not really slam dunked this passage, to be sure. I look forward to more discussion.

wm

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